Sarah, I think the most important thing is that if a republican, especially trump, is in the White House, not only will women especially suffer here, but he will support the worst despots all over the world.
I’m not going backwards because of some EvilAngekical Christian AssHat. They have an agenda to silence women once again. Didn’t work out that well the first time.. FVCK that. Take away women’s rights now in 2023 and watch WTF happens next. I call it: Fuck Around and Find Out 🙌🏽🖕🏽🙌🏽MAKE MY DAY
I think you can rest assured that your perspective is not as mysterious as you think it is, or that it hasn't been considered.
PS: if you yourself would not have an abortion, but you have no desire to prevent other people from doing it, then you are pro-choice. You want other people to have reproductive choices.
I support the 1A right of platforms and publishers to choose what they publish and who they associate with. So, I *do* support free speech, just not the Baby's First Civics Lesson version you support.
It’s the viability factor. If a baby is able to survive outside the womb, with or without medical assistance it’s a person. We don’t have the technology to keep an embryo or fetus alive, yet. When and if we do - instead of abortion we could surgically remove that EMBRYO/FETUS causing no harm to mother or FETUS/ EMBRYO and drop it in a fish tank to fully developed. Once they are we can send them to you and everyone that thinks like you and you can all raise them, with all that that entails. And you don’t need to write any separate more focused anything. Just sit and stfu.
Sex has risks and so does rape and so does complicated pregnancies.You’re an absolutely condescending idiot. Manders explained EVERYTHING to you in simple words and you still don’t get it. You never will so enjoy your smug existence and please, don’t procreate. Or go out in public, just stay home and do whatever it is you do.
Nope- you’re wrong. I know you hate that but you are. I did say we can’t do it “yet”. Did you read my entire comment? I said when and if we do women can have it surgically removed for the same cost as abortion of course , and lovingly placed in an incubation tank. Once viable the pro lifers will be assigned a baby or 2. No problem for me, resolution for you. Or no? They can sent to orphanages. Is that better?
There have never been unlimited choices when it comes to abortion.
First of all, we already have laws in this country that contradict your little thought experiment; they're called "stand your ground laws." Cops also have a certain amount of immunity from prosecution when they kill someone, even if that person hasn't harmed them in any way. So we already let people get away with murdering someone who attacks them, or even just makes them feel threatened. These are laws created by alleged "pro-life" conservative politicians.
Second, as I wrote further down the thread, we already don't force people to give up a whole or part of their body to keep someone else alive (not even their BLOOD, not even if *they* are responsible for putting that person's life in danger), so it's actually that YOU are forcing people who can give birth to be the exception, not the other way around. We allow people bodily autonomy; we've just decided that women and people who can get pregnant don't deserve it. That it's ok to think of them more as baby-making machines, or POTENTIAL baby-making machines, than as people. The implications of this are enormous and very bad, way beyond your first-thought "abortion iz murder" bullshit. You think you've got it all figured out, but you really really really have not.
Third, abortion absolutely IS healthcare, and your desire to phrase it in an emotional way, to make an argument from hysteria and disgust (which is a logical fallacy, btw), does not change that. We do not just use abortion to end unwanted pregnancies; we also use them to end wanted pregnancies that have failed or threaten the mother's life in some way. And because of people like you, people with those pregnancies are also being maimed and killed.
Fourth, because you make an exception for rape and incest, you are already compromising your own position: that abortion is murder and murder is bad. All you really mean is that if you feel sorry enough for the pregnant person, you will allow them health care, even though you are not them, or a doctor, or even someone who knows anything about their situation. It's all hypothetical to you.
And as I ALSO further argued downthread, abortion IS a consequence. It's just not a consequence that is harsh enough for you. We let the Sacklers get off with some fines, and they murdered thousands of people, but you think being forced into a life-threatening medical procedure and bringing a child into the world is apt punishment for having sex. An everyday act that most people take part in, that does not concern you, and you will never know about, done by people you will never meet, whose financial and medical burdens you will never know about or shoulder. Children you will never help raise, or pay for, or care one tiny fuck about.
And you think your position is the winning, rational one? LOL, no.
OMG!! Articulate refreshing truthful spot on !! Fucking brilliant 🙌🏽 I sent your thread to my adulting daughters! They loved it!! Ahhh the intelligence of this post. Thank you Manders
The blog that they're definitely going to write at some point is called "Aaron's blog," and this person is a virulent transmisist so, yes: it's a dude.
Friend, you cannot ask for people to answer you and then get mad when I answer. You claimed I was not "willing to address it" but I did. Several times. You're not the big scawwwy gotcha that you think you are, bud. You're not even the first pro-forced birther that has loudly whined that nobody can answer his arguments. Or the first one that, when I heard them, groaned loudly and thought "oh great, this again."
There's no "rules" and no "game" here. When I said you were losing, what I mean is that the lion's share of the country does not agree with you, certainly not to your horrific authoritarian degree. When people get the chance to vote for legalized abortion, they do so. You're right that your position is somewhat unique. It's uniquely awful. And so is your reasoning.
1) "By your logic stand your ground laws mean that the attackers aren't living people" Incorrect. I have never made the argument that fetuses aren't living people; I'm not getting into the "when life begins" argument, because that's all it is: an argument that can never be ended or decided, purely philosophical. I'm saying we already allow murder in some circumstances, so the "murder bad" argument is not that persuasive to me (nor do I agree that abortion is murder, no matter how you shriek that it is. If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter, and I bet you've never even considered THAT possibility. But don't worry: governments have! And they've arrested women who miscarry! Such freedom! Such choice!); what you're telling me with your response is that you are an *extremely* punitive person with a frightening willingness to use cruel and unusual punishment, which is against he law, just FYI.
"If someone needs an organ donated, we don't force people to donate organs because other people were not involved" False, and you know it because you immediately tried to cover your ass in your next sentence. "If you cut someone's kidney out, maybe the state should force"-- but the point is that it doesn't. Under any circumstances. You lose this one. My analogy is accurate (and I'm guessing you haven't heard it before, LOL), your rebuttal sucks.
2) "Repeat the edge case to justify the rule" No. This isn't about "the rule." This is about *reality* and here in *reality* where people need medical care, you cannot write rules that will sufficiently protect the edge cases and punish people for having sex like you want (you fucking prude). Doctors have been screaming this since the bans have been put into place; lawmakers are not doctors and they can't write a law that will do that. And all you're saying when you dismissively say "edge case" is that you are fine with murdering and maiming a certain number of women if it means more births will happen. It doesn't matter if they happen safely, or if the people giving birth can afford and care for the children or that they will ever be able to give birth again, all that matters is that they be punished for having sex. So, you're fine with certain kinds of murder. The murder of women.
"In the case where mother's lives are at stake, a new choice is added" except YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO HAVE CHOICES. The side you are on explicitly writes laws that do not give these women choices, even when they and their fetuses are dying. You cannot claim you do not limit choice when your position explicitly does that.
"In no world should we treat pregnancies with no threat to the mother and pregnancies" I'm gonna stop you right there. It's happening right now. In pro-forced birth states, women with failing pregnancies and dead fetuses are being denied abortions and forced to carry their *dead fetuses* to term for WEEKS AND MONTHS. We DO NOW, and WE ARE NOW, and IT IS EXPLICITLY THE FAULT OF YOUR SIDE. If you deny that, well, you're denying reality. Nothing new there.
4) "I simply suggested it makes my argument more coherent" except it doesn't. I'm not "gotcha-ing" you, I'm pointing out a logical fallacy, and further, you keep claiming there is a choice, and in a lot of cases in reality, there isn't. And again: you cannot keep claiming your position is about choice when it is explicitly against that. You are not allowing strangers choices in their health care because it makes you feel real icky. Further, the *REALITY* (there's that word again) of your position is that rape and incest victims get no choice. It does not matter what you personally believe; the reality is that your positions implemented as law deny people choices.
5) "You're invoking the Sacklers" LOL no, I haven't seen the Netflix documentary; I read. Why is it irrelevant exactly? You keep saying "consequence," but what you are talking about is a punishment, because when the state forces you to do something, that is about as punitive as it gets. The Sacklers got fined some money for mass murder, a thing you apparently give no fucks about because those were full human beings and not partially-formed fetuses, but you want to punish people for having sex by forcing them to have kids. Truly, nothing shows a love of children more than thinking they should be brought into the world as punishment (rolls eyes forever). I know PRECISELY what your position is, because you've fucking said it, plus I've argued with dinks like you a million times, and none of you sound any different.
"The interesting tell is that you think abortion is a consequence" Everything that follows after this is some of the most ignorant, snobbish, ill-informed shit I've ever heard. You must be a rich asshole if you think a few hundred dollars isn't a big deal, or if traveling in some cases HUNDREDS of miles, staying overnight, and missing work isn't a big deal for working-class people, people who in many cases work shifts that change every week, who get no paid sick days. You completely lack any kind of understanding of how bad abortion access is in this country, what life is like for people living in poverty, and in general you sound like the most living-in-a-bubble blinkered cis-het white man I've come across in quite a while. Truly, I cannot express how badly you came off here. It is so obvious that this is all academic to you, and you think in hypotheticals, and have no idea what is going on. That you think you're the super-smart guy with all the right arguments that noooobody's ever heard before. Further, reading this paragraph really reinforces that this isn't really about "consequence" for you; it's about punishment. You think the punishment of some money and some days off and some pain isn't enough; you want to punish--specifically people with uteruses, mostly women--for having sex. You treat sex like it's illegal, and if any woman gets caught having sex, by getting pregnant, they deserve to be punished. By the *government*. Even if they use birth control and it fails. Because that's not an "edge case." Even though under the law, sex is NOT illegal, it is a private act that is neither your nor the government's fucking (heh) business. This is a part of my argument, I notice, that you have completely failed to address.
"It clear [sic] that is not the consequence to the thing [SIC] being killed" where do I fucking start. A fetus does not have sentience. They do not know they are being killed. If you are never born, you never know the feeling of having lived and consequently you feel no loss. Also, you called the fetus a "thing" so pardon me if the reality of their life doesn't seem that real to you, actually. OTOH, if a mother with kids dies in childbirth, or in sepsis waiting for her hospital to give permission to finally abort the dead fetus inside of her, she will likely be in pain and afraid and know she is dying, her loss is mourned, her children grow up motherless and potentially orphans and her partner is shattered, but it's pretty apparent you don't give any fucks about them either. The great thing about advocating for fetuses is that they have no voice and cannot speak up against you; they have no feelings or complicated lives.
"You don't [sic] an extremely bad job" So listen: you cannot claim that I don't know your position and claim I've done a bad job of responding to it. Maybe you've done a bad job of explaining it. I haven't used you in place of anything. I've specifically replied to what you said, and the side you are on is actually relevant here, because we are seeing the reality of your beliefs enacted into law right now. Nothing I said was irrelevant, even if you say so. You can also claim you're not against choice or harming women, and you'd be wrong about that too.
And yes, we're winning. Your beliefs are in the minority, and waning. Your politicians are losing. Even Trump is trying to distance himself from this ish.
Honestly, reading your self-righteous, narcissistic drivel is taking up too much of my short life. I've done what you said couldn't be done. And now, I'm done.
"The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.”
Religion has NO place in Government...EVER. This is a FREEDOM. Full stop! Religion is a personal choice (thus, a freedom) it is between “YOURSELF” and FULL STOP AGAIN. 🤬
You’re the one wanting to interfere in my business. You need to provide some kind of justification. I don’t owe you shit. Not conversation, not debate. Nada.
Depends on who it is. Those worthless assholes who hang out at Planned Parenthood and harass patients could collapse on the sidewalk and I’d step over them and keep walking.
Religion and politics is not the problem People are the problem. This planet would be better off if people didn’t exist in the first place. So “pro life” isn’t a good thing. I’m pro choice and pro death penalty and agnostic. And mommadillo is correct- no one owes you a discussion or debate or to tell you jack shit about why or how they think. Arrogant much?
Wish there was a ❤️ button. These people are CRAZY to think this is right., it is a Freedom and everyone, (repeat) EVERYONE has a choice. It is a FREEDOM. NO ONE should be told what to do.
We (as in all of us) have to live with your own choice. There are many who struggle everyday with HARD choices, that is how it should be. STFU already, it is a matter of MY choice, I will struggle with it and never forget. 😢
You obviously know very little about chromosomes, sex, gender or anything else. I can think of about twenty exemptions to your third-grade level definition who would still be identified as a man, and I'm not even talking about trans men here. Could you cram it sideways and let the adults talk?
Just because you do not understand something does not mean it is incoherent. Yes, even if different people have different definitions of gender. I'm sorry complexity upsets you, but as far as I can tell, reality is not something you are actually terribly conversant with, Aaron. Here in reality, the world spins forward, no matter how hard you reactionary types try to stop it.
The hard right-wingers have been very busy behind the scenes working in secret like TERMITES! People with more liberal ideology need to get busy working just as hard to counteract the hardcore backward ideology of the hardliners. I’m old and I was in my 30s when RoevWade came into law and I was shocked because of the norms of the time. At approximately the same age I gained the right to have a credit card in my own name!!! Can you imagine living life in the age of information without a credit card? We were just coming out from the oppressive time when men ruled women with a heavy hand. I don’t want my grandchildren being forced into such restrictive ideology or the constraints and consequences of a “Christian’ nation rather than a secular nation with freedom of religion! Separation of Church and State (possibly under threat in the near future) needs to be guarded carefully. It is foundational to our freedoms. We don’t want to end up with an American Taliban!
Two of my friends in the '60s had to get illegal abortions or they would have lost their jobs. Both were damaged in the process and later unable to get pregnant when they could afford to have children. Post partum blues were not understood much at the time. It's easy for ignorant men to assume that depressed women are "crazy", and blame the victim.
Maybe so but probably not as often as quacks with rusty or dirty coat hangers. Many girls bed to death or got really bad infections. They left the back alley quack’s place bleeding and in pain. If you had a botched abortion at Planned Parenthood then I feel sorrow and compassion about that happened to you or maybe it’s someone you know. I remember the relief I felt for all those that might want an abortion even though I never had one. But I knew someone, a teenager, that did back then and she experienced consequences. The hope RoevWade gave women was safety. I don’t know statistics to compare the 40s 50s & 60s to the 2000s but I’m scared back alley abortions will be resumed. I think that’s the most likely scenario. And today women’s lives are put at risk when they want their baby but the fetus isn’t healthy enough to continue and the mother’s life is threatened when she has to wait till she’s at death’s door to get the needed procedure to save her life. ONGYNs are leaving red states particularly if there’s a law a doctor giving an abortion will be imprisoned. There’s now a scarcity of obstetricians now in some of those states and where does that leave pregnant women. What upsets me is state congressional leaders making decisions like this when they don’t understand medicine or medically problematic pregnancies. Mortality rates are going up for fetuses, babies and their mothers. It’s a very complex issue.
The fact that sometimes medical personnel make mistakes does not mean that the procedure should not be available. Other kinds of medical procedures ALSO get botched.
LOL, explain what? Your sky daddy religious propagandist? I'm an atheist and I'm not interested in anything Allie Beth has to say. She's just some asshole with a YouTube channel, she's not a doctor or a scientist or even a pastor.
The trouble with being a fascist like you are is that you'll believe anyone who tells you what you want to hear. And YouTube shorts.
You think that is "all I got," dumbass? I was specifically answering your argument, and you can't answer mine. Lots of medical procedure get botched, so "hurr durr sometimes people do abortion wrong" is not a reason to ban it. If that were the case, we should ban ALL medical procedures.
There's a question of scale; there IS no widespread botching of abortions such that it's a huge problem. But forcing someone into a back alley with unsterile equipment or questionable practices is inherently more dangerous than sending someone to a medical clinic with a doctor.
"Then there's the fact that there's only a small percentage from rape and incest." Some of your fellow forced-birth enslavers won't allow exceptions for either, princess. It is YOUR FAULT that RAPED CHILDREN are being forced to give birth to their rapists' babies. And your stupid, badly written laws are killing and maiming women with WANTED pregnancies that fail.
Further, a lot of people that get abortions are MARRIED and ALREADY HAVE CHILDREN, but because of conservative monetary policies, they CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE MORE. That is a good reason to have an abortion actually, if your next pregnancy will push you and all of your kids into poverty. If you cared about that, you wouldn't vote Republican. But you don't. You're probably exactly the kind of asshole who shits on poor people for their "choices."
None of you self-righteous twunts care one fig for the children your hate helps produce. You spend your time nattering online instead of lifting a fucking finger to help make sure women get pre-natal care, or all American children are fed.
Don't use your faux feminist bullshit on me, self-hating asshat. No man can cheapen me. I DO know my fucking worth, and I also know that many an abortion has saved a woman from having to stay connected to their rapist or their abuser. It's an inherently feminist thing to have reproductive justice.
In short, fuck you and the hysterical hobbyhorse you rode in on, Karen.
I also, in 1963 our high school did not allow girls to wear pants. Guys HAD to wear a belt NO jeans.
I can’t say I hated it, it was what it was. However, I do not believe in going backwards. A dress code doesn’t hurt much. I am though, furiously opposed to taking women’s rights away. Today’s Right Wing are not acceptable for anyone. ESPECIALLY A WOMEN’S BODY.
This must be STOPPED. It is so hard to believe that our Freedoms are close to being gone. THE COURTS MUST STEP IN. How can this happen they are breaking the law EVERYDAY.
HITLER DIED and I don’t remember him being RESURRECTED.
TFG IS NOT GOD and he is old enough to die soon. He’s not in good health and has dementia. But now we see them all coming out of the woodwork to do all the EVIL our loved ones fought for.
I do. We had to wear nylon stockings that ran if you looked at them crosseyed and cost so much I couldn't afford to eat well. Pants suits were such a relief and we're an immediate hit (also made sexual access to womenmore difficult for male employees/bosses .
My stocking runs usually came at a very crucial moment. Pantsuits and knee highs were great inventions. I remember buying 4-fers. They should be brought back.
Ummm....whatsa 4-fer? Was that the belt that you clip the nylons to? Gads, I would never do anything to let a man think I was available, since so few of them were eligible.
4-fees was a box of inexpensive knee highs sold in grocery stores just prior to the L’Eggs becoming popular and available in grocery stores. Garter belts’ upper part was similarly to a girdle with long garters with buckles to latch to the stocking. They were uncomfortable & the buckles could dig into your leg and skin. Ugh!
And some, you'll note, are very busy right here, right now. Not behind the scenes. Not in secret. But, yes, very much working, like busy little termites trying to foist their viewpoint on the rest of humanity. STILL. It's breathtaking sometimes that these people think it's just fine and dandy to MAKE YOU do as they wish. The fight goes on!
Because they are the minority in reality ruling the majority because they Wm are well financed by billionaires and corporations. There was a time in my lifetime that bi-partisanship was the practice. Both sides discussed and compromised. Repubs & Dems in these sessions after making their arguments went to lunch together. Many were close friends. That doesn’t happen anymore as you must know. Better decisions are made for the country when there’s bi-partisanship. Today hard-right Republicans in Congress refuse to do this and that disrupts the course of governing.
Yes, kinda like my formative years in Kansas in the salad days of the 1950s, where the playground bullies ruled by a My Way or Eat Dust fiat. Those bullies are all grown up and produced two going on three generations of bully spawn. Add several dashes of fascist pseudo religious ideology and voilà 🫤
"Free' speech does not confer on you the right to say anything you want to anybody, anytime, no matter how vile, malicious, false or hateful. There are limits bound by decency, which some sociopaths don't seem to comprehend.
The US already had the highest maternal death rate of any developed country, and the new "pro-life" (hahahaha) restrictions on abortion are increasing it. I may be only a man, but I have an opinion on that which is that it seems to be going in the wrong direction.
It was me, Claudia, the wrier. Substack offerds that option. If people want to present rational opposing opinions, great. IF they are only here to demean, criticize, abuse or in general be jackasses, fuck em. Love the sharp, well-informed folks who showed up. Thank you.
I have been writing about the problem of conservative political regression with regards to the following point that you make, "This is the precedent the current clerics of the Court now defer to, in deciding what the state will allow 21st century women to do with their own bodies?"
A significant sub-network within the larger conservative network that you bring up in your piece here today is the "Truth and Liberty Coalition" this organization is solidly entrenched in the "Seven Mountains" movement and plays a significant part in the "Convention of States Action" movement that intends to rewrite the Constitution of the USA. Also perhaps the single most outsized individual responsible for helping to overturn Roe vs. Wade is Leonard Leo. Alliance Defending Freedom is in actuality one small part of the greater whole and owes much of its support to Leonard Leo and the numerous individuals who lead and operate the Truth and Liberty Coalition.
The more people that are exposed to and made aware of this gargantuan conservative Christian nationalist network and its efforts the better prepared we will all be in the coming years to fight back against it and those who are actively fighting for control of our liberal Democracy.
Yes, Leo is the catalyst. He has set up many shell companies that each pay themselves monies. In other words, it’s a big money laundering scheme where these so-called companies are filed to be tax exempt. Sheldon Whitehouse has been investigating Leo for years and recently subpoenaed he and Harlan Crow. Both have snubbed their noses to him and Dick Durbin. Others involved in these companies are Ginni Thomas (no surprise), the Mercers, and the Koch’s, plus Peter Thiel, and others who we are unaware of. It is nauseating.
I’m getting nauseous over this hidden activity of right wingers while yet at the same time we hear reports of right wing or religious family values folk doing dastardly things in secret while they are organizing to deny freedom to others. Kudos to Sheldon Whitehouse and Dick Durbin.!
If you are under the impression that being pro-choice (no scare quotes needed, thanks) has anything to do with what people who are pro-forced birth believe, you don't understand pro-choice arguments.
If you think that it is acceptable to force someone who can give brith to carry a pregnancy to term simply because their birth control failed, or they were raped, or they didn't use birth control, you are not pro-consequence. You're pro bringing a new life into the world, a thing of no little import, plus forcing someone into a life-threatening medical condition, for which they will receive little to no medical care if they have no insurance, as a consequence for having sex, an act that harms YOU not at all, and is in fact, none of your fucking business.
You also fail to consider that having an abortion, an invasive procedure that is not free, and is, thanks to bigots like you, often not covered by insurance, IS a consequence. It requires time (and these days, it likely requires travel time): time off from work, time to recover, time many working-class people cannot afford to take. It can take a psychic toll on someone (even though most people do not regret their abortions in the long term). What you are saying is that YOU don't think it's consequence enough. You are punitive; you want to punish people, people you do not know, people you will never meet, for having sex. With a child, a life-long commitment, and with birth, something that in the US regularly kills women, especially Black women. Further, you want to incidentally punish women who are having wanted pregnancies that fail, because the laws written to please people like you have harmed those women time and time again. Those women end up dead and maimed, unable to have more children, because of these laws. Your beliefs have cause this. You're a bad person. Regardless of what you want, this is the *consequence* of how you vote.
Further, the bodily autonomy argument goes further than just the idea of self defense. There are better parallels. I'm a kidney donor; I voluntarily sacrificed part of my body to give it to someone else. But the state (or the people, if you'd rather) does not FORCE people to give up kidneys to keep someone else alive. So what you're doing, is carving out situation where the state is explicitly FORCING people who can get pregnant to carry those pregnancies to term and give birth to children you will NEVER help care for or raise. And if you did actually care about those children, you would have put mechanisms in place before now to make sure those people got proper maternity care and leave, and that all American children are fed and well education. But you don't give a fuck.
Further, all of your nattering about how the people will decide is belied by the fact that many federal Republican pols are very open about the fact that they will impose a federal abortion ban if they get the chance.
You talk about comfortable realities. Your comfortable fantasy is that people just don't "get" you, that you've really thought this through and you have arguments nobody can answer (LOL nah), that your arguments are solid and ours are flimsy.
It's the opposite, brah. You weren't a thoughtful pro-choice person, and you're not a thoughtful pro-forced birth person. You're a self-righteous, callous, punitive, fuckwit.
Thank you for responding to that subversive reply. I have a strong suspicion that profile (Headkase) is a hybrid human-Chat GPT troll. I would suggest that you try to not to let it drag you into an extended exchange, thus wasting time and creating unnecessary doubt and confusion for other readers, which is its end goal. At the very least its answer is that of a Moralist operating within Absolutist parameters, and as such should simply be dismissed as an attempt to muddy the waters.
Well said. “They talk about Government “in our face”... GET OUT... “they” are in our face and very very WRONG. Put back “Roe v Wade” and shut the hell up. SC get to doing their JOB instead of being Partisan, you took the oath Prove YOU are worth our respect, you are really BAD at it,
I forgot to mention also that you might want to consider not engaging with the profile named Yuri Bezmenov, as it is a Russian subversive operation that operates to intentionally create strife, doubt, debate, confusion and anger. As the old saying goes, "don't feed the trolls."
They're just so tiresome. The same tired arguments over and over, even while they are completely losing the national battle, even while their own pols are furiously trying to disavow their beliefs.
Bethel church, based in Redding California is a far right wing evangelical organization that is infiltrating the Redding city council and, along with the despicable moms of Liberty, infiltrating the local schools. It’s f’ed up obscenely crazy shit. Heavy emphasis on the Seven Mountains backasswards philosophy. Thank you for this excellent article!
Bethel isn’t even close to far right. Maybe compared to Mao or Stalin. They are considered borderline progressive by most Christian circles. They are at most slightly right of moderate. When Apologia or Christ Church get involved, then you are closer to far right. By what definition are Bethel far right?
Sarah, I think the most important thing is that if a republican, especially trump, is in the White House, not only will women especially suffer here, but he will support the worst despots all over the world.
"You have picked a cause because you needed meaning in your life. Sad."
Sorry, banned. I really hate this constant, tedious republican projection.
Sorry, I ban vicious randos who have no clue what they are talking about. It's tiresome..
I’m not going backwards because of some EvilAngekical Christian AssHat. They have an agenda to silence women once again. Didn’t work out that well the first time.. FVCK that. Take away women’s rights now in 2023 and watch WTF happens next. I call it: Fuck Around and Find Out 🙌🏽🖕🏽🙌🏽MAKE MY DAY
Fuck All the way Off🖕🏽 and your blocked
Blocked
I think you can rest assured that your perspective is not as mysterious as you think it is, or that it hasn't been considered.
PS: if you yourself would not have an abortion, but you have no desire to prevent other people from doing it, then you are pro-choice. You want other people to have reproductive choices.
That douche got banned 🙌🏽
Twice!
So, you DON'T support free speech. Correct?
I support the 1A right of platforms and publishers to choose what they publish and who they associate with. So, I *do* support free speech, just not the Baby's First Civics Lesson version you support.
It’s the viability factor. If a baby is able to survive outside the womb, with or without medical assistance it’s a person. We don’t have the technology to keep an embryo or fetus alive, yet. When and if we do - instead of abortion we could surgically remove that EMBRYO/FETUS causing no harm to mother or FETUS/ EMBRYO and drop it in a fish tank to fully developed. Once they are we can send them to you and everyone that thinks like you and you can all raise them, with all that that entails. And you don’t need to write any separate more focused anything. Just sit and stfu.
Sex has risks and so does rape and so does complicated pregnancies.You’re an absolutely condescending idiot. Manders explained EVERYTHING to you in simple words and you still don’t get it. You never will so enjoy your smug existence and please, don’t procreate. Or go out in public, just stay home and do whatever it is you do.
Nope- you’re wrong. I know you hate that but you are. I did say we can’t do it “yet”. Did you read my entire comment? I said when and if we do women can have it surgically removed for the same cost as abortion of course , and lovingly placed in an incubation tank. Once viable the pro lifers will be assigned a baby or 2. No problem for me, resolution for you. Or no? They can sent to orphanages. Is that better?
There have never been unlimited choices when it comes to abortion.
First of all, we already have laws in this country that contradict your little thought experiment; they're called "stand your ground laws." Cops also have a certain amount of immunity from prosecution when they kill someone, even if that person hasn't harmed them in any way. So we already let people get away with murdering someone who attacks them, or even just makes them feel threatened. These are laws created by alleged "pro-life" conservative politicians.
Second, as I wrote further down the thread, we already don't force people to give up a whole or part of their body to keep someone else alive (not even their BLOOD, not even if *they* are responsible for putting that person's life in danger), so it's actually that YOU are forcing people who can give birth to be the exception, not the other way around. We allow people bodily autonomy; we've just decided that women and people who can get pregnant don't deserve it. That it's ok to think of them more as baby-making machines, or POTENTIAL baby-making machines, than as people. The implications of this are enormous and very bad, way beyond your first-thought "abortion iz murder" bullshit. You think you've got it all figured out, but you really really really have not.
Third, abortion absolutely IS healthcare, and your desire to phrase it in an emotional way, to make an argument from hysteria and disgust (which is a logical fallacy, btw), does not change that. We do not just use abortion to end unwanted pregnancies; we also use them to end wanted pregnancies that have failed or threaten the mother's life in some way. And because of people like you, people with those pregnancies are also being maimed and killed.
Fourth, because you make an exception for rape and incest, you are already compromising your own position: that abortion is murder and murder is bad. All you really mean is that if you feel sorry enough for the pregnant person, you will allow them health care, even though you are not them, or a doctor, or even someone who knows anything about their situation. It's all hypothetical to you.
And as I ALSO further argued downthread, abortion IS a consequence. It's just not a consequence that is harsh enough for you. We let the Sacklers get off with some fines, and they murdered thousands of people, but you think being forced into a life-threatening medical procedure and bringing a child into the world is apt punishment for having sex. An everyday act that most people take part in, that does not concern you, and you will never know about, done by people you will never meet, whose financial and medical burdens you will never know about or shoulder. Children you will never help raise, or pay for, or care one tiny fuck about.
And you think your position is the winning, rational one? LOL, no.
This is why you are losing.
OMG!! Articulate refreshing truthful spot on !! Fucking brilliant 🙌🏽 I sent your thread to my adulting daughters! They loved it!! Ahhh the intelligence of this post. Thank you Manders
The blog that they're definitely going to write at some point is called "Aaron's blog," and this person is a virulent transmisist so, yes: it's a dude.
Friend, you cannot ask for people to answer you and then get mad when I answer. You claimed I was not "willing to address it" but I did. Several times. You're not the big scawwwy gotcha that you think you are, bud. You're not even the first pro-forced birther that has loudly whined that nobody can answer his arguments. Or the first one that, when I heard them, groaned loudly and thought "oh great, this again."
There's no "rules" and no "game" here. When I said you were losing, what I mean is that the lion's share of the country does not agree with you, certainly not to your horrific authoritarian degree. When people get the chance to vote for legalized abortion, they do so. You're right that your position is somewhat unique. It's uniquely awful. And so is your reasoning.
1) "By your logic stand your ground laws mean that the attackers aren't living people" Incorrect. I have never made the argument that fetuses aren't living people; I'm not getting into the "when life begins" argument, because that's all it is: an argument that can never be ended or decided, purely philosophical. I'm saying we already allow murder in some circumstances, so the "murder bad" argument is not that persuasive to me (nor do I agree that abortion is murder, no matter how you shriek that it is. If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter, and I bet you've never even considered THAT possibility. But don't worry: governments have! And they've arrested women who miscarry! Such freedom! Such choice!); what you're telling me with your response is that you are an *extremely* punitive person with a frightening willingness to use cruel and unusual punishment, which is against he law, just FYI.
"If someone needs an organ donated, we don't force people to donate organs because other people were not involved" False, and you know it because you immediately tried to cover your ass in your next sentence. "If you cut someone's kidney out, maybe the state should force"-- but the point is that it doesn't. Under any circumstances. You lose this one. My analogy is accurate (and I'm guessing you haven't heard it before, LOL), your rebuttal sucks.
2) "Repeat the edge case to justify the rule" No. This isn't about "the rule." This is about *reality* and here in *reality* where people need medical care, you cannot write rules that will sufficiently protect the edge cases and punish people for having sex like you want (you fucking prude). Doctors have been screaming this since the bans have been put into place; lawmakers are not doctors and they can't write a law that will do that. And all you're saying when you dismissively say "edge case" is that you are fine with murdering and maiming a certain number of women if it means more births will happen. It doesn't matter if they happen safely, or if the people giving birth can afford and care for the children or that they will ever be able to give birth again, all that matters is that they be punished for having sex. So, you're fine with certain kinds of murder. The murder of women.
"In the case where mother's lives are at stake, a new choice is added" except YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO HAVE CHOICES. The side you are on explicitly writes laws that do not give these women choices, even when they and their fetuses are dying. You cannot claim you do not limit choice when your position explicitly does that.
"In no world should we treat pregnancies with no threat to the mother and pregnancies" I'm gonna stop you right there. It's happening right now. In pro-forced birth states, women with failing pregnancies and dead fetuses are being denied abortions and forced to carry their *dead fetuses* to term for WEEKS AND MONTHS. We DO NOW, and WE ARE NOW, and IT IS EXPLICITLY THE FAULT OF YOUR SIDE. If you deny that, well, you're denying reality. Nothing new there.
4) "I simply suggested it makes my argument more coherent" except it doesn't. I'm not "gotcha-ing" you, I'm pointing out a logical fallacy, and further, you keep claiming there is a choice, and in a lot of cases in reality, there isn't. And again: you cannot keep claiming your position is about choice when it is explicitly against that. You are not allowing strangers choices in their health care because it makes you feel real icky. Further, the *REALITY* (there's that word again) of your position is that rape and incest victims get no choice. It does not matter what you personally believe; the reality is that your positions implemented as law deny people choices.
5) "You're invoking the Sacklers" LOL no, I haven't seen the Netflix documentary; I read. Why is it irrelevant exactly? You keep saying "consequence," but what you are talking about is a punishment, because when the state forces you to do something, that is about as punitive as it gets. The Sacklers got fined some money for mass murder, a thing you apparently give no fucks about because those were full human beings and not partially-formed fetuses, but you want to punish people for having sex by forcing them to have kids. Truly, nothing shows a love of children more than thinking they should be brought into the world as punishment (rolls eyes forever). I know PRECISELY what your position is, because you've fucking said it, plus I've argued with dinks like you a million times, and none of you sound any different.
"The interesting tell is that you think abortion is a consequence" Everything that follows after this is some of the most ignorant, snobbish, ill-informed shit I've ever heard. You must be a rich asshole if you think a few hundred dollars isn't a big deal, or if traveling in some cases HUNDREDS of miles, staying overnight, and missing work isn't a big deal for working-class people, people who in many cases work shifts that change every week, who get no paid sick days. You completely lack any kind of understanding of how bad abortion access is in this country, what life is like for people living in poverty, and in general you sound like the most living-in-a-bubble blinkered cis-het white man I've come across in quite a while. Truly, I cannot express how badly you came off here. It is so obvious that this is all academic to you, and you think in hypotheticals, and have no idea what is going on. That you think you're the super-smart guy with all the right arguments that noooobody's ever heard before. Further, reading this paragraph really reinforces that this isn't really about "consequence" for you; it's about punishment. You think the punishment of some money and some days off and some pain isn't enough; you want to punish--specifically people with uteruses, mostly women--for having sex. You treat sex like it's illegal, and if any woman gets caught having sex, by getting pregnant, they deserve to be punished. By the *government*. Even if they use birth control and it fails. Because that's not an "edge case." Even though under the law, sex is NOT illegal, it is a private act that is neither your nor the government's fucking (heh) business. This is a part of my argument, I notice, that you have completely failed to address.
"It clear [sic] that is not the consequence to the thing [SIC] being killed" where do I fucking start. A fetus does not have sentience. They do not know they are being killed. If you are never born, you never know the feeling of having lived and consequently you feel no loss. Also, you called the fetus a "thing" so pardon me if the reality of their life doesn't seem that real to you, actually. OTOH, if a mother with kids dies in childbirth, or in sepsis waiting for her hospital to give permission to finally abort the dead fetus inside of her, she will likely be in pain and afraid and know she is dying, her loss is mourned, her children grow up motherless and potentially orphans and her partner is shattered, but it's pretty apparent you don't give any fucks about them either. The great thing about advocating for fetuses is that they have no voice and cannot speak up against you; they have no feelings or complicated lives.
"You don't [sic] an extremely bad job" So listen: you cannot claim that I don't know your position and claim I've done a bad job of responding to it. Maybe you've done a bad job of explaining it. I haven't used you in place of anything. I've specifically replied to what you said, and the side you are on is actually relevant here, because we are seeing the reality of your beliefs enacted into law right now. Nothing I said was irrelevant, even if you say so. You can also claim you're not against choice or harming women, and you'd be wrong about that too.
And yes, we're winning. Your beliefs are in the minority, and waning. Your politicians are losing. Even Trump is trying to distance himself from this ish.
Honestly, reading your self-righteous, narcissistic drivel is taking up too much of my short life. I've done what you said couldn't be done. And now, I'm done.
Bye, dingus.
"The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.”
- Dave Barnhart, Methodist pastor
Religion is a blight. Humanity would be better off without it. It provides nothing of value to offset all the harm it does.
Religion has NO place in Government...EVER. This is a FREEDOM. Full stop! Religion is a personal choice (thus, a freedom) it is between “YOURSELF” and FULL STOP AGAIN. 🤬
You’re the one wanting to interfere in my business. You need to provide some kind of justification. I don’t owe you shit. Not conversation, not debate. Nada.
Depends on who it is. Those worthless assholes who hang out at Planned Parenthood and harass patients could collapse on the sidewalk and I’d step over them and keep walking.
Religion and politics is not the problem People are the problem. This planet would be better off if people didn’t exist in the first place. So “pro life” isn’t a good thing. I’m pro choice and pro death penalty and agnostic. And mommadillo is correct- no one owes you a discussion or debate or to tell you jack shit about why or how they think. Arrogant much?
Wish there was a ❤️ button. These people are CRAZY to think this is right., it is a Freedom and everyone, (repeat) EVERYONE has a choice. It is a FREEDOM. NO ONE should be told what to do.
We (as in all of us) have to live with your own choice. There are many who struggle everyday with HARD choices, that is how it should be. STFU already, it is a matter of MY choice, I will struggle with it and never forget. 😢
So what are your questions?
Yeah, it's interesting that he never actually said what his questions were, right? "Nobody will answer my questions!"
"What do you want to know?"
[crickets]
What is a man?
Yuri doesn't know.
Yuri doesn’t know jack shit. And I blocked him and some other trolltramp.
A drone.
Sheesh. Being pro-choice does NOT mean aborting every pregnancy.
And nobody uses it that way, hysteric.
Personally, as someone who could never have children, I find it disgusting that women like you think other people owe you babies.
You obviously know very little about chromosomes, sex, gender or anything else. I can think of about twenty exemptions to your third-grade level definition who would still be identified as a man, and I'm not even talking about trans men here. Could you cram it sideways and let the adults talk?
Ah, and of course you're a bigot too.
Just because you do not understand something does not mean it is incoherent. Yes, even if different people have different definitions of gender. I'm sorry complexity upsets you, but as far as I can tell, reality is not something you are actually terribly conversant with, Aaron. Here in reality, the world spins forward, no matter how hard you reactionary types try to stop it.
Just hitting every branch on the fuckwit tree.
Sitting the election out is exactly what MAgats want. I will NEVER surrender to fascists
I'm an abortion rights activist in Kansas. I will share this with my group. Thank you for such an eloquent piece.
Elaine you are a ROCKSTAR 🙌🏽
How is it a lie?
Will have to check that out!
Holy Jumping Jesus, this is amazing work. It's well-written, thoroughly researched info. Thank you.
The hard right-wingers have been very busy behind the scenes working in secret like TERMITES! People with more liberal ideology need to get busy working just as hard to counteract the hardcore backward ideology of the hardliners. I’m old and I was in my 30s when RoevWade came into law and I was shocked because of the norms of the time. At approximately the same age I gained the right to have a credit card in my own name!!! Can you imagine living life in the age of information without a credit card? We were just coming out from the oppressive time when men ruled women with a heavy hand. I don’t want my grandchildren being forced into such restrictive ideology or the constraints and consequences of a “Christian’ nation rather than a secular nation with freedom of religion! Separation of Church and State (possibly under threat in the near future) needs to be guarded carefully. It is foundational to our freedoms. We don’t want to end up with an American Taliban!
Hey, remember when we couldn’t wear pants to work, Darlene?
I also remember back alley abortions and the dangers that brought.
Two of my friends in the '60s had to get illegal abortions or they would have lost their jobs. Both were damaged in the process and later unable to get pregnant when they could afford to have children. Post partum blues were not understood much at the time. It's easy for ignorant men to assume that depressed women are "crazy", and blame the victim.
Life begins at first breath, as written in Genesis.
Maybe so but probably not as often as quacks with rusty or dirty coat hangers. Many girls bed to death or got really bad infections. They left the back alley quack’s place bleeding and in pain. If you had a botched abortion at Planned Parenthood then I feel sorrow and compassion about that happened to you or maybe it’s someone you know. I remember the relief I felt for all those that might want an abortion even though I never had one. But I knew someone, a teenager, that did back then and she experienced consequences. The hope RoevWade gave women was safety. I don’t know statistics to compare the 40s 50s & 60s to the 2000s but I’m scared back alley abortions will be resumed. I think that’s the most likely scenario. And today women’s lives are put at risk when they want their baby but the fetus isn’t healthy enough to continue and the mother’s life is threatened when she has to wait till she’s at death’s door to get the needed procedure to save her life. ONGYNs are leaving red states particularly if there’s a law a doctor giving an abortion will be imprisoned. There’s now a scarcity of obstetricians now in some of those states and where does that leave pregnant women. What upsets me is state congressional leaders making decisions like this when they don’t understand medicine or medically problematic pregnancies. Mortality rates are going up for fetuses, babies and their mothers. It’s a very complex issue.
The fact that sometimes medical personnel make mistakes does not mean that the procedure should not be available. Other kinds of medical procedures ALSO get botched.
Yes a family member had her bowel burned during a procedure and she had chronic pain from it until her death.
I'm so sorry. That sounds like the kind of thing that would really mess with someone's quality of life.
LOL, explain what? Your sky daddy religious propagandist? I'm an atheist and I'm not interested in anything Allie Beth has to say. She's just some asshole with a YouTube channel, she's not a doctor or a scientist or even a pastor.
The trouble with being a fascist like you are is that you'll believe anyone who tells you what you want to hear. And YouTube shorts.
You think that is "all I got," dumbass? I was specifically answering your argument, and you can't answer mine. Lots of medical procedure get botched, so "hurr durr sometimes people do abortion wrong" is not a reason to ban it. If that were the case, we should ban ALL medical procedures.
There's a question of scale; there IS no widespread botching of abortions such that it's a huge problem. But forcing someone into a back alley with unsterile equipment or questionable practices is inherently more dangerous than sending someone to a medical clinic with a doctor.
"Then there's the fact that there's only a small percentage from rape and incest." Some of your fellow forced-birth enslavers won't allow exceptions for either, princess. It is YOUR FAULT that RAPED CHILDREN are being forced to give birth to their rapists' babies. And your stupid, badly written laws are killing and maiming women with WANTED pregnancies that fail.
Further, a lot of people that get abortions are MARRIED and ALREADY HAVE CHILDREN, but because of conservative monetary policies, they CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE MORE. That is a good reason to have an abortion actually, if your next pregnancy will push you and all of your kids into poverty. If you cared about that, you wouldn't vote Republican. But you don't. You're probably exactly the kind of asshole who shits on poor people for their "choices."
None of you self-righteous twunts care one fig for the children your hate helps produce. You spend your time nattering online instead of lifting a fucking finger to help make sure women get pre-natal care, or all American children are fed.
Don't use your faux feminist bullshit on me, self-hating asshat. No man can cheapen me. I DO know my fucking worth, and I also know that many an abortion has saved a woman from having to stay connected to their rapist or their abuser. It's an inherently feminist thing to have reproductive justice.
In short, fuck you and the hysterical hobbyhorse you rode in on, Karen.
Sure do! Couldn’t wear pants to school either kindergarten through college.
I also, in 1963 our high school did not allow girls to wear pants. Guys HAD to wear a belt NO jeans.
I can’t say I hated it, it was what it was. However, I do not believe in going backwards. A dress code doesn’t hurt much. I am though, furiously opposed to taking women’s rights away. Today’s Right Wing are not acceptable for anyone. ESPECIALLY A WOMEN’S BODY.
This must be STOPPED. It is so hard to believe that our Freedoms are close to being gone. THE COURTS MUST STEP IN. How can this happen they are breaking the law EVERYDAY.
HITLER DIED and I don’t remember him being RESURRECTED.
TFG IS NOT GOD and he is old enough to die soon. He’s not in good health and has dementia. But now we see them all coming out of the woodwork to do all the EVIL our loved ones fought for.
Really judges we need the LAW. NOW. 😢🇺🇸🙏🏻
On snow days, we could wear them to school but immediately take them off and put them in the cloakroom until end of day.
I do. We had to wear nylon stockings that ran if you looked at them crosseyed and cost so much I couldn't afford to eat well. Pants suits were such a relief and we're an immediate hit (also made sexual access to womenmore difficult for male employees/bosses .
Nylons!! Oh gawwwd...held up by garter belts!
My stocking runs usually came at a very crucial moment. Pantsuits and knee highs were great inventions. I remember buying 4-fers. They should be brought back.
Ummm....whatsa 4-fer? Was that the belt that you clip the nylons to? Gads, I would never do anything to let a man think I was available, since so few of them were eligible.
4-fees was a box of inexpensive knee highs sold in grocery stores just prior to the L’Eggs becoming popular and available in grocery stores. Garter belts’ upper part was similarly to a girdle with long garters with buckles to latch to the stocking. They were uncomfortable & the buckles could dig into your leg and skin. Ugh!
To be clear the box of 4-Fers contained 4 pairs of knee highs.
Auto-correct got me. 4-fers.
Yet clergy wear dresses(flowing robes with red slippers)
And some, you'll note, are very busy right here, right now. Not behind the scenes. Not in secret. But, yes, very much working, like busy little termites trying to foist their viewpoint on the rest of humanity. STILL. It's breathtaking sometimes that these people think it's just fine and dandy to MAKE YOU do as they wish. The fight goes on!
Because they are the minority in reality ruling the majority because they Wm are well financed by billionaires and corporations. There was a time in my lifetime that bi-partisanship was the practice. Both sides discussed and compromised. Repubs & Dems in these sessions after making their arguments went to lunch together. Many were close friends. That doesn’t happen anymore as you must know. Better decisions are made for the country when there’s bi-partisanship. Today hard-right Republicans in Congress refuse to do this and that disrupts the course of governing.
Yes, kinda like my formative years in Kansas in the salad days of the 1950s, where the playground bullies ruled by a My Way or Eat Dust fiat. Those bullies are all grown up and produced two going on three generations of bully spawn. Add several dashes of fascist pseudo religious ideology and voilà 🫤
Infantile rubbish
Thank you for this very well researched and written post. I’ll definitely restack your work.
"Free' speech does not confer on you the right to say anything you want to anybody, anytime, no matter how vile, malicious, false or hateful. There are limits bound by decency, which some sociopaths don't seem to comprehend.
The US already had the highest maternal death rate of any developed country, and the new "pro-life" (hahahaha) restrictions on abortion are increasing it. I may be only a man, but I have an opinion on that which is that it seems to be going in the wrong direction.
The maternal mortality rate in Texas increased to 21% after the ban on abortion. That’s almost 1/4 of all pregnancies. Pro life indeed!
It was me, Claudia, the wrier. Substack offerds that option. If people want to present rational opposing opinions, great. IF they are only here to demean, criticize, abuse or in general be jackasses, fuck em. Love the sharp, well-informed folks who showed up. Thank you.
This is an excellent wake up call.
I have been writing about the problem of conservative political regression with regards to the following point that you make, "This is the precedent the current clerics of the Court now defer to, in deciding what the state will allow 21st century women to do with their own bodies?"
A significant sub-network within the larger conservative network that you bring up in your piece here today is the "Truth and Liberty Coalition" this organization is solidly entrenched in the "Seven Mountains" movement and plays a significant part in the "Convention of States Action" movement that intends to rewrite the Constitution of the USA. Also perhaps the single most outsized individual responsible for helping to overturn Roe vs. Wade is Leonard Leo. Alliance Defending Freedom is in actuality one small part of the greater whole and owes much of its support to Leonard Leo and the numerous individuals who lead and operate the Truth and Liberty Coalition.
The more people that are exposed to and made aware of this gargantuan conservative Christian nationalist network and its efforts the better prepared we will all be in the coming years to fight back against it and those who are actively fighting for control of our liberal Democracy.
Yes, Leo is the catalyst. He has set up many shell companies that each pay themselves monies. In other words, it’s a big money laundering scheme where these so-called companies are filed to be tax exempt. Sheldon Whitehouse has been investigating Leo for years and recently subpoenaed he and Harlan Crow. Both have snubbed their noses to him and Dick Durbin. Others involved in these companies are Ginni Thomas (no surprise), the Mercers, and the Koch’s, plus Peter Thiel, and others who we are unaware of. It is nauseating.
I’m getting nauseous over this hidden activity of right wingers while yet at the same time we hear reports of right wing or religious family values folk doing dastardly things in secret while they are organizing to deny freedom to others. Kudos to Sheldon Whitehouse and Dick Durbin.!
And Leo is in bed with ‘Clearance’ Thomas - he’s never met a Billionaire that wasn’t his friend...
Good thing miscegenation is legal now!😂
We don’t have much time.
If you are under the impression that being pro-choice (no scare quotes needed, thanks) has anything to do with what people who are pro-forced birth believe, you don't understand pro-choice arguments.
If you think that it is acceptable to force someone who can give brith to carry a pregnancy to term simply because their birth control failed, or they were raped, or they didn't use birth control, you are not pro-consequence. You're pro bringing a new life into the world, a thing of no little import, plus forcing someone into a life-threatening medical condition, for which they will receive little to no medical care if they have no insurance, as a consequence for having sex, an act that harms YOU not at all, and is in fact, none of your fucking business.
You also fail to consider that having an abortion, an invasive procedure that is not free, and is, thanks to bigots like you, often not covered by insurance, IS a consequence. It requires time (and these days, it likely requires travel time): time off from work, time to recover, time many working-class people cannot afford to take. It can take a psychic toll on someone (even though most people do not regret their abortions in the long term). What you are saying is that YOU don't think it's consequence enough. You are punitive; you want to punish people, people you do not know, people you will never meet, for having sex. With a child, a life-long commitment, and with birth, something that in the US regularly kills women, especially Black women. Further, you want to incidentally punish women who are having wanted pregnancies that fail, because the laws written to please people like you have harmed those women time and time again. Those women end up dead and maimed, unable to have more children, because of these laws. Your beliefs have cause this. You're a bad person. Regardless of what you want, this is the *consequence* of how you vote.
Further, the bodily autonomy argument goes further than just the idea of self defense. There are better parallels. I'm a kidney donor; I voluntarily sacrificed part of my body to give it to someone else. But the state (or the people, if you'd rather) does not FORCE people to give up kidneys to keep someone else alive. So what you're doing, is carving out situation where the state is explicitly FORCING people who can get pregnant to carry those pregnancies to term and give birth to children you will NEVER help care for or raise. And if you did actually care about those children, you would have put mechanisms in place before now to make sure those people got proper maternity care and leave, and that all American children are fed and well education. But you don't give a fuck.
Further, all of your nattering about how the people will decide is belied by the fact that many federal Republican pols are very open about the fact that they will impose a federal abortion ban if they get the chance.
You talk about comfortable realities. Your comfortable fantasy is that people just don't "get" you, that you've really thought this through and you have arguments nobody can answer (LOL nah), that your arguments are solid and ours are flimsy.
It's the opposite, brah. You weren't a thoughtful pro-choice person, and you're not a thoughtful pro-forced birth person. You're a self-righteous, callous, punitive, fuckwit.
Thank you for responding to that subversive reply. I have a strong suspicion that profile (Headkase) is a hybrid human-Chat GPT troll. I would suggest that you try to not to let it drag you into an extended exchange, thus wasting time and creating unnecessary doubt and confusion for other readers, which is its end goal. At the very least its answer is that of a Moralist operating within Absolutist parameters, and as such should simply be dismissed as an attempt to muddy the waters.
I blocked HeadKase.. and another twatbot trollbotslimesuckingfucktard whatever😵💫
Well said. “They talk about Government “in our face”... GET OUT... “they” are in our face and very very WRONG. Put back “Roe v Wade” and shut the hell up. SC get to doing their JOB instead of being Partisan, you took the oath Prove YOU are worth our respect, you are really BAD at it,
I forgot to mention also that you might want to consider not engaging with the profile named Yuri Bezmenov, as it is a Russian subversive operation that operates to intentionally create strife, doubt, debate, confusion and anger. As the old saying goes, "don't feed the trolls."
I do not accept the premise that abortion is murder. Sorry.
Bye.
And another block.. they’re like rats scurrying around shitting on women’s rights because fuck you that’s why 🙄fucking asshats
They're just so tiresome. The same tired arguments over and over, even while they are completely losing the national battle, even while their own pols are furiously trying to disavow their beliefs.
Your entire argument is made invalid by the claim that pregnancy is an "inconvenience."
Blocked, blocked and double blocked
What point??? Who are you???
Already did azzhole
'She died in childbirth' was often said in hushed tones.
She left her husband with 5 children to raise alone.'
Back to that in 2023.
Bethel church, based in Redding California is a far right wing evangelical organization that is infiltrating the Redding city council and, along with the despicable moms of Liberty, infiltrating the local schools. It’s f’ed up obscenely crazy shit. Heavy emphasis on the Seven Mountains backasswards philosophy. Thank you for this excellent article!
Bethel isn’t even close to far right. Maybe compared to Mao or Stalin. They are considered borderline progressive by most Christian circles. They are at most slightly right of moderate. When Apologia or Christ Church get involved, then you are closer to far right. By what definition are Bethel far right?